* `Smoot hrmms. Any more rooms around with a bit more of a writing focus, out of curiousity?
<Frito_M> Smoot - A few that are invite only.. um...
<Frito_M> And, this room DOES have the Spam rule. :) Not as strongly enforced, but its there. You spam, people are supposed to listen.
<`Smoot> Frito: That's... kind of BAD, when you think about it.
<Frito_M> Smoot - Why?
<`Smoot> Well, lessee... we're a writing community... but the rooms that deal with writing primarily are invite only. I'm not seeing the logic.
<Frito_M> Smoot - #subcafe used to be a writing room, but it got overrun with people who don't want to talk about writing.
<Frito_M> The people who DO want to write retreated to other rooms, making them invite only to prevent people who don't WANT to write from barging in.
<Edanaepona> Smoot: Me either.  I went to one once and got yelled at.
<`Smoot> Frito: Wow. That must've been old school.
<`Alan> Frito: Or don't primarily talk about writing.  I'm perfectly willing to talk about it when the subject comes up.
<Frito_M> Alan - Try to bring it up though. I've tried.
<Frito_M> It gets ignored.
<Frito_M> Smoot - Not really. Even a year ago we had fic discussions.
* Sassy_K got knocked out of #plotting b/c she didn't know it was invite-only <:)

[That's how #plotting worked. If you went in, hearing everyone else in here talk about it, they kicked you back out unless you'd been invited in. Doing that usually got you on their bad sides, however. At least that's how it came to me.]

* `Smoot would just like a room to sit in, to listen to ideas, chip in when necessary, and get help when I ask for it. And don't anyone mention #spam; that place is deader than a Amish rave.

[Amish rave? I need to remember that one.]

<`Datura> The fic chat comes on occasionally, sometimes late nights because we have nothing better to talk about.
<`Alan> Frito: Well, I've _seen_ it come up.  Not very often, I'll grant you, and mostly fairly late at night, but it has come up.
<Eponaedana> Now the question is, how do you get an invite to those rooms?
<Frito_M> Smoot- The best thing I can suggest is to talk to one of the ops in Plotting.
* Threnody snickers at Smoot, but agrees.
<Frito_M> Epona - Talk to a #plotting OP. (I'm NOT A #plotting OP) - ask them.
<`Datura> Epona: An op has to invite you, and that op has to ask all the other ops, and/or the room moderator.
<`Smoot> Frito: Been there, done that, came back.
<Threnody> Who *are* the ops?
<Frito_M> #plotting is the only room for it right now.
<`Alan> Frito: That presupposes one knows who they are, which, if one hasn't ever been there because it's invite-only, one probably won't.
* `Datura is an op, though is not currently opped because Brooke hasn't fixed the thing to my new ident.
<`Smoot> They said "Why don't you go to #Spam?" I did. It was Redhawk. That was all.
<Sassy_K> Mitai is one
<`Datura> Alan: That's why you ask, maybe, hmm?
<Frito_M> Mitai, KayJay, Brooke, Alicia, Dyce, Mel, Falstaff.
<`Smoot> Alan: My point for about the last three months.
* Frito_M shrugs. And as you can see, the minute you DID ask, I told you.
* Threnody takes note of the names and sighs. She'll ask.
<`Smoot> Frito: See, do you know how many of these people know me? Staff, and he's not been in here since I was clean-shaven. Which was MONTHS ago.
<`Alan> Kal: I'm just saying, if you don't _know_ about #plotting, which is highly possible, you won't know to ask.  And I haven't particularly cared, because the last time I did anything fanficcish was, oh, at least a year ago.
<Frito_M> Smoot - Redhawk is the token male op. He doesn't act as an op often. He's sponsered ONE person, and that was me.
* `Datura makes a note: I will NOT have anyone bashing #plotting for being private, let's get that straight now. You have a problem with it, take it up with BROOKE OR KJ.
<`Datura> It is THEIR channel, we have NO control on whether it is private or not.
<Frito_M> Smoot - I'm sorry, its not a public room, if you want a writing room, CREATE ONE>
* `Smoot is not bashing #plotting. FOr those that are in it, I'm sure that it works wonderfully. But it's next to impossible to get into.

[At least it is after you make a channel that allegedly is an underhanded mock-up of theirs and send them crying into each other's arms.]

* `Alan ohs.  So _that's_ where Brooke went.  Was wondering.
<Phrykyh> Smoot: If you do, I'll move there.

[From the smallest beginnings... heh.]

<Eponaedana> Datura:  We're not bashing.  We're just saying they're making it a little too hard to join
<Frito_M> And, for god's sake, if you create a room, sit in BOTH ROOMS.
<`Datura> Epona: That's the point.
<Frito_M> If you want people to write in your room, don't hide there - advertise.
<`Datura> Because, yes, as people have said, #plotting is a clique, and, yes, it's private to keep people OUT.

[You know, they said the "Kliq" ruined the WWF. Perhaps the clique of #plotting isn't too far from that... wait, who gets to be Shawn Michaels?]

<`Smoot> Phry: I'm about *this* close to starting my own chan for writing. But if I post something about it, I'll get grumbled about behind my back.
* Threnody snickers, and would be open to a new room.
<Eponaedana> Datura:  I don't blame them for wanting to keep people who aren't serious about writing out, but they may be going a little too far.
<Sassy_K> Kiko: not bashing, just saying
<Frito_M> And there's a REASON they keep people out. Because, frankly, #subcafe is a pit of silliness. And #plotting is ONLY FOR writing.

[Remember this.]

<Phrykyh> Smoot: Doesn't matter. I'd start one, but I'm unable to kick people without being a hypocrite.
<`Datura> I'm not a nice person on this subject, so deal with it. It's private, you can't get in, if you want to, talk to KJ or Brooke. End of story, nothing more anyone can do.
<`Alan> Kal: And that's the _other_ reason I haven't asked.   I have bad associations with cliques.
* `Smoot nods.
<`Smoot> Dat: Well, shucks.
<Frito_M> Epona - Actually, they aren't. There are 10 people in #plotting at this moment.
* Threnody has no problem with any private rooms, 'cause basically, they're private an' really none o' my business.
<Frito_M> If you want to disc writing in a big group, START talking about it IN HERE.
<Frito_M> I'l back you up 150 %
* Eponaedana sighs...I'm not saying their evil or mean. Can't I just make a gentle criticism?
<Frito_M> This room is *FOR* fanfic discussion, its high time we started talking about fic sometimes.
<`Smoot> Frito: Did you not say earlier that that doesn't work?

[I love doing this. Bringing up the ways that people contradict themselves. Helps me sleep at night.]

<`Datura> Epona: Look, I'm sorry, but I hear at least ONCE A WEEK about people complaining that #plotting is private.
<Frito_M> Smoot - Well, I could start enforcing it. But, then people say I'm a bitch.
<`Datura> If you're upset about it, don't tell us, take it to Brooke or KJ. I can't say that enough.
<`Datura> I am SO bloody tired of hearing about it!

[She's said this about three times now. I don't think anyone's quite listening.]

<Edanaepona> Frito: I would, but unfortuanately, the only fic I'm really working ain't a MU fic.

[MU is Marvel Universe, I think, for those of you who aren't ficcers.]

* Threnody snuggles Frito. You're not that at all. People just make you enforce the rules, an' then they don't like it.
<Frito_M> Edana - I don't WRITE MU fic.
<`Alan> Edana: That's a problem?
<Frito_M> And I'm a plotting regular.
* Eponaedana drops the subject...We're just going to go around in circles
<Phrykyh> Frito: If you start enforcing it, I'm gone. I don't write fanfic.
<`Smoot> Frito: No, I like the atmosphere. I like having a channel that is laid-back, and esssentially a "pit of silliness". But I'd like to be liked enough to be able to go to the chans that I came on IRC for.
<`Datura> Edana: I talk about none MU fic. I talk about my original fic in here all the time!
<Frito_M> Phry - Your loss. This room is *FOR* fanfic.
<Phrykyh> Frito: Yup. It was, anyway. I apologize -- I meant the "I'm gone" as "I'm no longer on topic," not "I'm leaving."
<Edanaepona> Dat/Frito: Generally it's easier to talk about Marvel stuff in here 'cause not everybody knows about the other stuff I like.  ex: Right now I'm trying to work out a HL/H:TLJ fic with Methos. It's kinda hard to have somebody help you work it out when you have to explain who Methos is first.
* `Alan likes talking about fic.  I don't bring the subject up much because i haven't written anything in a long time, and the social-silliness aspect doesn't bother me because it does a remarkable impersonation of a social life for me. I wouldn't _mind_ talking about writing more, but I'm not a huge fan of enforcement.
* Threnody sighs. She likes coming here because there are people to talk to who are like her, and there's always writing help if she needs it.
<Frito_M> Edana - You'd be SUPRISED.
<Doqz> Alan: ditto :)
<Frito_M> See, I like the social silliness. But it used to be that, we could TALK fanfic in here. When's the last time anyone said "Hey, I have a really good idea, but I need some help?"
<Threnody> Alan: Ditto.
<Edanaepona> Frito: "Hey I have a really good idea, but I need some help."
<Doqz> Frito: Maria, yesterday iirc
<Sassy_K> Frito: I..brought that up not too long ago. But it usually goes to /msg
<`Alan> Frito: S' most of what Ph says, lately. :)
<Frito_M> And, frankly, twice I've been told "This room isn't FOR Fanfic"
<Frito_M> Edana - Wonderful, what's your idea?
<Phrykyh> Alan: Hey, cool. I'm being noticed. Unless there's another Ph running around.
* `Datura sighs. Let's put it this way-- I spam and talk about all kinds of fic all the time in here. And the convo actually goes well. Before anyone starts saying "I can't talk fic here! I want to be in #plotting"... Consider this: #1, try first. #2, you can't get into #plotting, pending you ask Brooke or KJ.

[Four.]

<`Datura> Make the best of the situation and stop whining about it. Might help.
<`Smoot> Dat: You know, some of us HAVE tried both of these options.
<`Alan> Ph: Well, I usually take a stab at your questions 'cos they generally tickle my interest, is why I brought it up. :)
* Phrykyh nods at Alan. And I appreciate it.
<`Alan> Ph: Although I don't really need to know why you're asking. It's _much_ more fun to make up my own reasons. :)
<Threnody> GAH! It's 9 already? Geez...
<`Datura> Smoot: You've talked to KJ or Brooke and asked to come in #plotting?
<Phrykyh> Alan: If you ever do want to know, feel free to ask. I just tend to be a bit spartan about my writing.
<`Smoot> Dat: The ops were asked via Yona. I was granted a one-night pass, and essentially was shown the door. That was a week and a half ago. They said "Why not Spam?"
<`Alan> Ph: oh, sure, that's what I mostly figure. :)
<Frito_M> Smoot - Did you ask them why you were shown the door?
<`Smoot> Frito: I wasn't kicked. I just wasn't invited back.
<`Datura> Smoot: Fine. You were granted a one-night pass and you used it. If it's obvious that's all their going to grant you and you'd like to come in again, ask again.

[But Dat. I thought you said that you had to be invited? What happened?]

<Frito_M> Smoot - And again, I say, did you ask them WHY? Or if you COULD have a permanant invite?
<Phrykyh> Perhaps I'm missing the point, but if he was let in on a trial basis, wouldn't it make sense that they would tell him that he could come back? Rather than him having to beg each time?

[I'd just like to point out that Phrykyh's points in all of these arguments are perfectly sound, and say what I'm trying to say a lot better than I am. So listen to him, not my sarcastic ramblings. Well, listen to him more.]

<Frito_M> Phry - They probably FORGOT. They're human.
<`Smoot> Frito: They said "WHy don't you go to spam?"
<Phrykyh> Frito: If they did, then that's all well and good. If they didn't, he would be putting them in an extremely uncomfortable position.
<`Datura> Smoot: And you could've said "It's usually empty. I'd really like to stay around in plotting, if at all possible". If they said no, then oh well.
<Frito_M> Smoot - Did you bother saying "#spam died"?
<`Datura> Phry: It's either that or deal with it.
<Eponaedana> Frito:  Maybe I'm reading too much into this here, but if someone answered by request to be let into their room with "Why don't you try another room?", it says to me that they don't want you.
* `Smoot was going to be polite about Spam, you know. Great idea and all. I didn't want to say it died. It was starved, but oh well. The politics and bureaucracy it takes for one to get into a channel for a blasted hobby is flat-out insane, and I'm quite prepared to defend that statement.
<Frito_M> Epona - No, they're honestly trying to keep the room numbers down. #spam was a good alternative at the time.
<Frito_M> Smoot - I've been told to tell you to talk to Mitai

[This was the first time that I realized that this was being carried on in more than one room, and that I was on the path to stardom, or something.]

*** Mitai has joined #subcafe
<Phrykyh> Greetings and salutations.
<Sassy_K> Here's an idea. Let's try and kick some life back into #spam instead of going on about how #plotting is so select
* `Datura waves to 'Tai.
* Mitai walked in at a bad time, didn't she. . . =)
<`Datura> Sassy: That's a GOOD idea. :)
* Frito_M nods. There. Now you can all talk to a Plotting Op and not whine to me.
<Edanaepona> No, not at all, Mit.
<`Datura> I love it when people DO SOMETHING instead of WHINING. :)
<`Datura> That's a great thing, isn't it?

[In the words of, well, me; "Oh shut up."]

<Sassy_K> Mitai: Actually...it might be an ideal time
*** Frito_M sets mode: +oooo `Alan `Datura Mitai Redhawk
<Phrykyh> Sassy: How come you're not there?

[Told you Phry's awesome.]

* `Datura thanks Frito.
<`Alan> Hey, Mitai.
<`Smoot> Dat: Yeah, isn't it?
<Sassy_K> Phry: Cause I was never quite sure what #spam was about
<`Datura> Phry: Because she wasn't the one complaining...?

[No, but I'll be damned if you don't.]

<Eponaedana> Datura:  I for one was not whining.  Pointing out a few things I think are wrong, but *not* whining
<`Datura> Epona: If you're not happy about it and you're saying so, but not doing anything, that's whining to me/
<Phrykyh> Datura: She's the one who suggested that we "kick more life back into it."
* Eponaedana sighs...Since when is not agreeing with something and saying so the same thing as whining?
<Phrykyh> Sassy: Just FYI -- #spam!. With an exclamation point.
<`Alan> Edana: True.
* `Datura sighs... think of it this way. There are some places we can't go IRL because they're just not open to us, the public.
<`Datura> We can't do anything about that.
<`Datura> So we deal with it.

[And we're told to, many times, by uppity people.]

<Sassy_K> Phry: Ahhh
<Frito_M> Smoot, you wanted to find out, talk to Mitai, she's a #plotting Op.
<`Datura> Epona: When you're not trying to do anything about it and you're just complaining. Which is all I ever see. "People go too far with the privacy of #plotting!" Yet they don't want to bother to talk to the real people in charge about it.
* Frito_M frankly, thinks you're all upset because you think you're being excluded, and NOT because you really want to plot. You could plot in here.
* `Datura nods after Frito.
* Edanaepona doesn't care and just wants some help with her fic!
* Threnody plots with Timey an' Laura off window all the time. Find someone and plot. That easy.
<`Smoot> Frito: Well, I, for one, have tried.
<Eponaedana> For the record, I don't particularly care if I get into #plotting or not.  I really don't have time.  I was just pointing out a couple of things that I think are wrong in principle.
<`Alan> Frito: Oh, absolutely.  I've got a knee-jerk reaction about cliques.  Plus I like debating relative inconsequentialities.
<`Smoot> It didn't quite work, and now I'm doing something about it.
<Frito_M> Smoot - But you won't talk to the #plotting people? That's.. silly.

[No, silly is talking about how I should talk to the #plotting people about what I've already talked to the #plotting people about.]

* Frito_M must head out. Indi wants her PC back.
<`Alan> Later, Frito.
<`Datura> Bye, Frito!
<`Smoot> Frito: I AM talking to the #plotting people.
<Doqz> bye frito
* Eponaedana sighs and stares at the ceiling in her hammock
*** Eponaedana is now known as Epona_Harper
* Mitai patpats Epona. What are your points?
<Sassy_K> Bye Frito!
*** Edanaepona is now known as Edana_ni_Emer
*** Frito_M has quit IRC (Quit: And as usual, for defending my beliefs and the beliefs of others, and their rights to privacy, I get slammed.)

[Inflammatory quitlines piss me off.]

* Edana_ni_Emer is getting dizzy from trying to keep up.
<Epona_Harper> Mitai:  That you were maybe making it a bit too difficult for new people to get in, especially since few newbies know who to talk to.
<Epona_Harper> I understand you all trying to limit it.  I just felt maybe you were going too far.
<Threnody> Edy: Now you know how *I* feel.
* `Datura sighs. What I heard from Brooke is that she doesn't want new people in there. This is what I heard from Brooke, so, yes, there is a point to it being hard to get in.

[This is important. Remember this. No new people. Yet, we talk to her about getting in. Logic train? De-railed.]

<`Smoot> Dat: I believe a better word for that, with this information, is "impossible".
<`Datura> Smoot: As I've been saying all night: "Too bad".

["So what you're saying is, we've proved our point perfectly, yet you're still right?"]

* `Datura wasn't allowed in until Brooke invited ME in. I didn't ask her. I was in there and got kicked, just like some of you. I had to wait until Brooke decided she wanted me in there, and her and KJ personally invited me.
<`Smoot> Dat: Kinda throws everyone's "talk to the ops" argument in the gutter though.
<`Datura> Smoot: It's near impossible to get in, yes. But you have a much better chance of getting in by talking to the ops then whining about it. If they say go elsewhere and they won't let you in, you deal with it.
* Threnody 's head explodes. Too... Many... Windows...
*** Threnody has left #subcafe
<Mitai> I'm going to explain something about plotting. =)  If you want in and you want HELP, not because you want in but because you actually want to plot fic, you ask an Op.  They then ask the other Ops, and we take a vote.  For instance, if I liked JoBlo but he was a poor writer and a troublemaker, his permission would be denied.

[I wasn't considered a troublemaker at this point, not yet, so I tried this. The vote went nay. I guess I'm just a poor writer and a troublemaker.]

*** AliMc has joined #subcafe

[Remember this name, too. She comes back.]

* Epona_Harper gets a drink and curls up on the couch
*** Persephone_Kore has joined #subcafe
* `Datura waves at Ali and Peek.
<AliMc> Hi, folks. Not to interrupt any ongoing conversations, but could I have everyone's attention for just a moment?
<Edana_ni_Emer> OK, ALi.
*** `Datura sets mode: +o Lynxie

[Oooh! Let's op all the #Plotting people!]

<LadyNomad> Sure.
<Phrykyh> Greetings and salutations.
*** Lynxie sets mode: +o AliMc
*** PollyMel has joined #subcafe
<Persephone_Kore> Yes, Alicia. :)
<`Datura> Ali: Sure.
<PollyMel> Heya. :)
<Sassy_K> Ali!!!!!
<Sassy_K> Go for it
* `Alan sits up straight and takes his feet off the table.  Yes, Ali?
<AliMc> Okay, it's on the subject of #plotting, actually.
<PollyMel> Heya all.
*** KayJay has joined #subcafe
*** `Azzy has joined #subcafe

[They're coming out of the woodwork, now. All #plotting people. All "better writers" than us poor folks down here in the common room.]

<AliMc> Speaking as a founding member, I'd be really upset to see any problems caused by it, here...

["Which is why, after eight months of complaining and problems being caused by it, I've decided to issue this public statement."]

<KayJay> H'lo, the room.
* `Alan shrugs.  I don't see it as a problem, myself. I see it as the cause of the current pointless-argument-du-jour, yes, but half an hour from now we'll be talking about ferrets, Transformers, or the funny thing that happened to me on the way to the bus this morning.

[*snicker*]

<AliMc> It's sort of come to our attention that some folks might be a little resentful about not having been invited...
* `Azzy ohboys. What did she step into this time?
* `Smoot shrugs. I just came to IRC to write. That's about all. It's not the invite thing. It's that all the writing-only channels are invite-only.
* AliMc chuckles at Alan. Well, good. :)
* `Smoot , also, is solely to blame for this uproar. Apologies all around.
<KayJay> Is #spam! still working?
<LadyNomad> I don't mind.  If I ever get invited I'll be happy but I don't really care.
<`Datura> KJ: #spam! is usually dead empty. :)
<AliMc> Smoot: #plotting wasn't a writing channel, originally.

{This gets drilled into my head, SO many times.]

<KayJay> Hm.
<Epona_Harper> KayJay:  Died of neglect
* KayJay nods.
* `Alan didn't even know about #spam! in the first place, but then I've not been around much lately.
<AliMc> It got that way because most of us who were original members tend to be the hyper-focused write-write-write type...;)
* `Datura sighs. I STILL don't see why you can't plot and write in HERE.

[But right now, we don't like you, because you're being antagonistic and you're reiterating yourself. And give it a shot. Frito already said it was impossible.]

<Lynxie> It was originally a channel Brooke started to drag Ali and Duey and I and KJ and peoples there.
<Sassy_K> KJ: We just started it back up
<`Alan> Kal: Edana and I _were._  Didn't you notice?
*** MellyPol has joined #subcafe
<AliMc> And somehow the misconception got started that it was THE plotting channel.

[Name may have had a hand in that. #plotting, plotting, all that rot.]

<Lynxie> Just 'cause #plotting was crowded. 's never such a big deal.
<Lynxie> Ali; IIRC, Ki made a misstatement about it, and everyone soon believed...
<Epona_Harper> Datura:  We, do.  This is where I come for help.  I was just pointing out something I feel is a little bit wrong.
*** TrishaLynn has joined #subcafe
<AliMc> Epona: What do you see as wrong?
<LadyNomad> Trisha!
*** Threnody has joined #subcafe
* Threnody ACKs. Many, many people.
<Epona_Harper> Ali: What I said earlier about it being ok that you limited it but you may have go too far.
<Mitai> Epona - no, that's fine. =)  You can think it's wrong, don't think we're being mean or coming down on you or anything! ::hug::  We just wanted to know what was going on.
<AliMc> Epona: How is it wrong to have a private channel?
*** Indigo_ has joined #subcafe
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o Indigo_
* Epona_Harper reigns in her temper
*** `Falstaff has joined #subcafe
<AliMc> Epona: Okay, so how did we go too far, then? :)

[Smiley faces. Rather often. Come on, get happy...]

*** ChanServ sets mode: +o `Falstaff
<Lynxie> 's not really a channel that NEEDS much expansion...
<`Datura> Epona: You said we were making it too hard for new people to come in. That's the POINT of a private channel...

[Private channels don't parade themselves around to the lesser-knowns and offer themselves as writing helpers, dear. Rather, they shouldn't.]

* Threnody waves and staggers. Did all the #plotting people get called in?
<Lynxie> We were happy how it was years ago, before everyone found out and decided that #plotting was THE place to be.
<Phrykyh> Greetings and salutations.
<Indigo_> if you want a room to plot in and can't get an invite into #plotting, go create your own.
<Indigo_> but do NOT give me static about it tonight.
<Epona_Harper> Ali:  It's fine to have a private channel.  It is even necessary sometimes.  My protest is that you might be making it too hard *especially since none of the new people know who to talk to about getting in*.
<Mitai> Lynxie - actually, I'm still happy . . . Indigo, hush, sweetling.
<Lynxie> A lot of the people that wandered in later we like and want them there, but--
* `Smoot HAS created the new room, so everyone knows.
<MellyPol> #spam! being one.

[But it's dead!]

<AliMc> Epona: We're under the obligation to make it easy for new people to come in?
<Epona_Harper> That is *all* I was saying!
* Indigo_ nods at Polly.  Exactly.
* Threnody remembers and snugcuddles Indy. "I'm so sorry, darling. I wish I could do something."
<Lynxie> --BUT, it's OUR ROOM.
<Indigo_> thanks, Thren.
*** Indigo_ is now known as IndigoWriting
<Lynxie> 'Tai; I know, I didn't say we're not happy now. But will we be if the room's so crowded we can't talk?
<`Smoot> #insidethewall   And that's the LAST you will EVER hear out of me on this situation. Sorry to upset you tonight, Indi. I mean that.

[#insidethewall stayed a plotting-type channel for only a few days, probably a few minutes even, because of another discussion that I got myself into while hanging in that dead room, #spam!.]

[And you know something? It's not the last that was ever heard of me on this situation. I lied too. String me up.]
 

On to the next chapter of the saga, "Smoot vs. Mitai, Round 1"